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There are people who believe conservative science fiction and fantasy… - Dan Goodman's journal
June 13th, 2015
12:02 pm

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There are people who believe conservative science fiction and fantasy have been unfairly slighted in the World Science Fiction Society awards (aka the Hugos.) As some of you know, this year two groups have tried to remedy the problem they see.

Perhaps there should be a list of older sf which Sad Puppies, Mad Puppies, and those inclined to agree with them might find objectionable.
Here is a start:

Robert A. Heinlein, Revolt in 2100. A strongly Christian US government is overthrown, with the author's obvious approval.
Robert A. Heinlein, The Puppet Masters. The future setting has term marriages.
Robert A. Heinlein, "Delilah and the Space Rigger." Blatant feminism.

H. G. Wells, The Time Machine. In the far future, descendants of the upper classes are exploited by the dictatorship of the proletariat. (Marxists might also find this novel objectionable.)

Harry Turtledove, Guns of the South. A victorious Confederate government deprives many citizens of their property.

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From:don_fitch
Date:June 13th, 2015 07:17 pm (UTC)
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Oh, yes. I've been in s-f Fandom for a bit over 50 years, and I'd say that the vast majority -- over 80%, and perhaps over 90% -- of the fans I've known have been.... ummm.... distinctly more liberal &/or progressive than the average American. We're the ones who created the Hugos, and voted for them, year after year. (Sometimes unwisely, yes, though we still carry on "spirited discussions" [the modern term seems to be "flame wars"] regarding the virtue of many of those choices.)

There might have been one or two exceptions, but as I recall the last time overt political/sociological ideology was in the '40s (before my time), when the Michelists wanted "Fandom" to Officially back the Communist Party. (The idea of fandom being sufficiently an Entity to officiallly do anything like that is ludicrous, of course, though if I understand correctly the individual fans running that convention were unified enough to exclude the Communist faction from membership. Oh, and I'm not sure if it was a WesterCon or a WorldCon that barred Walter Breen (he was a bit excessively fond of pre-pubescent children, preferably boys). Somehow, I don't think the Puppies would disagree with either of those Fannish Acts of Exclusiveness.

One of the things the Puppies seem to agree upon is a virulent hatred for John Scalzi. (Caveat: I don't much like most of Scalzi's s-f, with one exception, but I think his blog essays are such good fanwriting that they'd being shining gems in, say, a Terry Carr fanzine.) Oh, yeah... the one exception is his YA novel "Zoe's Tale", which I think ought to be read, and understood, by everyone in the world, preferably by the time they reach the age of 12 (though 80+ is not too late). The protagonist is a girl of about that age, who teaches the boys in her life that being Smart works much better than being Violent. This seems almost calculated to give Conservatives of the Puppy type The Creeping Horrors, over and above the fact that he's come out in favor of people having sex with consenting adults even if they are not married, and of people marrying others of their own sex.

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From:jordan179
Date:June 14th, 2015 03:40 am (UTC)
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The protagonist is a girl of about that age, who teaches the boys in her life that being Smart works much better than being Violent. This seems almost calculated to give Conservatives of the Puppy type The Creeping Horrors, over and above the fact that he's come out in favor of people having sex with consenting adults even if they are not married, and of people marrying others of their own sex.

That's incredibly funny, but not for the reasons you imagine. Pretty much all the Sad Puppies are in favor of intelligence as opposed to brute force, and one of the Sad Puppies' most prominent leaders, Sarah Hoyt, wrote at least one novel which has a happy ending for the protagonist -- he marries his True Love ...

... another man.
From:don_fitch
Date:June 14th, 2015 05:06 am (UTC)
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Thank you -- I should have known better than to use such a large brush. Not to mention ascribing too much to Beal (whose Attitudes do seem to me to be thoughouly noxious}. And all I've read by Hoyt has been quotes from her blog, wherein her writing style seems to be at a distinct angle from my comprehension.

And no, I've never gotten personally acquainted with any members of either group of Puppies -- apparently none of them have moved in the same fannish circles as I have. And, frankly, their single ulnifying factor -- the idea of Organizing to establish a Slate and win Hugos for works that support some particular Political persuasion -- is one that I find ... repulsive.

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From:jordan179
Date:June 14th, 2015 06:19 am (UTC)
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Beal is the organizer of the Rabid Puppies. There are several organizers of the Sad Puppies. They are different groups.

Furthermore, there was already a slate voting system, operated by the Tor Clique. The Puppies simply put forth their own suggestions. And, given that neither of the three sides involved have any power to compel anyone to vote their slates, what's the problem with having more than just the Tor Clique?

Hoyt writes a heck of a lot like Heinlein did. The 1940's through early 1960's Heinlein, back when he was still properly edited.
From:don_fitch
Date:June 14th, 2015 03:04 pm (UTC)
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Ah! There's the Point. I've not followed the Hugos closely the past three or four years, but when I was doing it I never perceived "the Tor Clique". All I'd noticed was that Tor had been gradually becoming more dependable -- books bearing that imprint were increasingly ones that I enjoyed & was likely to consider Hugo-worthy. I figured that this was because they'd developed a stable of highly-skilled purchasing & developmental editors whose taste was much like mine (and and like that of most of the long-time readers/fans whose taste I'd come to respect (if not always agree with)).

But yes, if one starts with the assumption that Tor's high reputation & getting at least a few slots on the Nominations every year was based on a clique that was gaming the system the way the various Puppy seem to be trying to do, then all else pollows in perfectly logical order, at least for the non-rabid puppies.

But I did not start with that assumption, nor have I found any good reason to adopt it.

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From:jordan179
Date:June 14th, 2015 03:37 am (UTC)
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The strawman versions of the Sad Puppies, who are evil racist and sexist white male supremacists, would indeed be offended. The actual Sad Puppies like a lot of those books.

Have you ever gotten to know any of the actual Sad Puppies?
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